Points for win/lose

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• Something I meant to ask about before. Now I understand the ELO system and as I'm at the top of the league table my win/lose for most games is 5/14. That is against one player. That's essentially saying I am 5/14 favourite to win. I'm basically gambling 14 points in order to gain 5.
  
  However when I play against 3 other players it stays the same. Now I'm no maths expert by any means but I have fair understanding of odds and it shouldn't be the same. If I'm playing against 5 players, or 10 players would it be the same? No of course it shouldn't , so it shouldn't be for 3.
  
  If my ELO rating is 5/14 with each of the three opponents then that is 5/14 x 3 = 15/14. My odds are just above evens. I should gain 15 points if I win and 14 if I lose.
  
  At the moment playing a 4 player game risking 14 points for just 5 is ridiculous odds.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Sorry to hijack your thread xeno, I also have a points related query.
  Can one's overall pts go negative? I've played around 14 games and lost all (yay). Just wondering if I'm still at 0 or -3 million or something
  Posted by Cpt Fishmonger 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• @Cpt Fishmonger, no, it's not possible to go negative; zero is the minimum.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• @Xeno, at the moment it works like this for 3 or 4 player games: It calculates the average league points of the winners and the losers, and then calculates the difference between the two numbers. It then does the following calculation (if D is the difference):-
  
  If D is negative the winners get 5 points.
  Otherwise the winners get "20 x (0.5 + (D/500))".
  
  (And the reverse happens for the losers). Don't ask me how I came up with this calculation! ;) I don't even remembering writing it; I think it's the result of lots of tweaking after implementing the ELO algorythm, several years ago now. Feel free to request a change though.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Right, most of that has gone over my head Steve, all I know is that I'm currently in a non-practise 4 player game and tbe odds of 5/14 for me to win are unrealistically very short and not worth the bet whatsoever.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Thanks Steve that's reassuring
  Posted by Cpt Fishmonger 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• After thinking about it, I think the flaw is that it doesn't take into account whether the game is 2v2, 1v1v1 or 2v1. I'll do some calculations and see the best way to rectify that.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Okay Steve, but are the odds that someone being the top is 5/14 when taking on three other players right? I can understand the ELO system against one, but surely it must change playing against three. It can not stay the same. If a horse (I come from Gloucester; Cheltenham festival) is 4/15 against one runner, if you enter three others then my odds must change. In this game it doesn't.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Sorry that is 5/14, almost 1/3. Fair enough if you are top form, but why does it not change between one, and then three other "runners"? I find this in every four player game I play if it isn't practise?
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Not sure why that put a question mark in. I've noticed in the forum that question marks appear a lot by accident. Henoh and myself in previous posts,
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• That's right; the calculations currently don't take into account playing against more than one other opponent, which it should since the game is presumbly harder against 2 other opponents.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Sorry, must be my typing not the forum. The ,.? is close together. Embarrassed face. Although sometimes when I put in an apostrophe it comes up as a ?
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• That's right.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• That's why I play a 4 player game as practise. If I drop to the bottom then I won't. ;)
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• The question mark issue I think only occurs when I'm using my new Chinese phone. Using my tablet at the moment.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• "That's right; the calculations currently don't take into account playing against more than one other opponent, which it should since the game is presumbly harder against 2 other opponents."
  
  Any plans therefore Steve to make the calculations do take that into account and make it a fair representation of the "odds", the point win/loss ratio?
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Yes, I'm just working on it. I've got a spreadsheet loaded as I write this. :) The good thing about the points system in SF is that it calculates it all retrospectively, so any change will affect the points for all past games as well as future games.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Cracking stuff. Hope it doesn't take you too much effort or time Steve, but I think it is an important adjustment. Will be very interesting if it does it retrospectively. Won't affect my points too much as I've been aware of the 3/4 player point anomaly, let us say, for a long time now and have tended to only play and create practise games as a workaround to it.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Just to give me a guide on points, what do we think the points should be for a player beating another when they have:
  
  * the same league points
  * the winner has 100 league points and the loser has 1
  * the winner has 1 league point, and the loser has 100?
  
  Those seem to be the extremes, and I can base it around that.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• What would it be currently Steve?
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• If a player with 1 LP beats a player with 160 LP, they get 16 points for a win. Players with the same league points get 5 points for a win.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• So based on that, what should a 1 LP and 100 LP be? Well I suppose 10 and 5 going on the above. With the 5 and 5 still remaining for the same level.
  Posted by xeno 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• Just to let you know, I haven't forgotten about this! I've come up with some calculation, and I'll do an update tommorrow evening (so I can tweak it if need be).
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]



• I've tweaked the calculations now. Let me know what you think.
  Posted by SteveSmith 6 years ago [Login to reply]

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